Official Luthiers Forum!

With all the recent discussions on Glue. I have a couple of questions.

I use Titebond 1 for most things, an I was wondering what are the advantages of LMI White Glue, and Hide Glue over Titebond.

I use Hide Glue for some joints that may need seperation, but never saw an advantage to it for other work.

With so many people coming out in favour of it, I,m wondering if I should change and use it more extensively ?


Many Thanks

Russ

Russel, besides the great advantage of repair the other plus for hide glue is it's crystalene (is this a word?) properties when dry. PVA's are softer (lending to the 'slip' issue) which some say will slow down the transmission of sound waves, kinda like a sponge. I wasn't going to go hide...but I satrted now and will continue, I felt if ou were trying to make instruments great give them every opportunity, no matter how small the contribution is, they all add up. Just my thoughts...

Shane

_________________
Canada

Talk about beating a dead horse ... Sorry I am not making fun of the topic but that lin in conjuntion with hide glue just kind of sliped out

Just so that you may not get the wrong idea from Shane's reply, Titebond and LMI white are repairable or heat release glues as well as Hide. Hide very well may have better acoustic transfer but it also has a higher heat failure temp and less creep. Hide is prpbably the best choice in most cases but the workable time is very short. I built my first 15 guitar with nothing but Titebond and have never had a joint failure (knock on wood )

[QUOTE=MichaelP]Hide is prpbably the best choice in most cases but the
workable time is very short.)[/QUOTE]

This is why I'm so reluctant to start using it although I'd like to try it. I take
too long to clamp things up, particularly when assembling top and back
plates to the ribs and neck to the soundbox. That being said I've done
numerous neck resets on Martins and Guilds from the '70 and '80 and they
all came out fine, same for the bridges. Martin uses Titebond for sure on
dovetail joint and bridge, perhaps white glue on neck extension. In any case
Titebond joints comes off with heat or steam.

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I did a somewhat lame, but still informative (to me), glue test sometime back. I laid a line of Titebond II (supposed to be more creep-resistant than the original), Lee Valley GF (has a high solids content), Stew-Mac long-cure epoxy, and LMI white--all on a piece of plastic. I let them dry for 2 days, then popped them off to see what they felt like. The epoxy was very hard--I couldn't dent it with my fingernail--and when I tried to bend it by hand, it snapped in half (with considerable effort). The GF was almost floppy--I could bend it around into a circle--and very soft. The Titebond II survived the fingernail test a little better than the GF, but still floppy--I could bend it into a half-circle before it broke. The LMI did not dent easily with a fingernail, and when I tried to bend it, it gave a little and then snapped crisply--much like the epoxy, but with less effort. So what does it all mean? Well, HHG got its reputation by drying to a hard and crystaline state--hence excellent sound transference and no creep. I was looking for something like that in an alternative, because I'm not set up for HHG, and, frankly, I'm a vegetarian and I'd rather not use an animal product if I can avoid it. The LMI seems to be a reasonable substitute, owing to its ease of reversiblity and its comparative hardness against other PVA's. I REALLY wish we could get a definitive answer on the LMI question.

Hey Russell
   I use a variety of glues depending on the joint. If I want heat resistance I use titebond II. (like purfling glued to binding that is going to be heat bent, or like a scarf joint on the neck when I know that there might someday be a possibility of removing the fingerboard with heat and I don't want the scarf joint to be affected, etc. etc.) I use Hide glue on all braces, top and bottom and side braces because I think it has the best sound transference and because it is really easy to clean up if you let it gel first. I use LMI glue for all the other joints that might take some time to clamp. (Plates to ribs, binding to the binding channel, etc.) I use LMI there because it is forgiving about work speed and it has is more crystaline when it sets up than is Titebond and I think that helps the sound. The only deviation from that is when working with cocobolo, I use LMI's alwood epoxie on cocobolo.

I liked the idea of LMI's white because it dries almost clear. Picked some up in May while in Windsor. But, after thinking a while about it decided, they probably don't manufacture their own glue.

So me punched the search engines and came up with good old white Cabinet Maker's PVA glue. All the details read exactly like Titebond, kind of funny, it is made by Titebond.

I got two gallons passing one gallon on to another luthier. It's great stuff, White Titebond from Franklin. Dries clear like the LMI glue, all the properties of original Titebond. It's marketed by Franklin under the Paxton's Brand. They sell it in five gallon containers too, for you entrepreneurs.

Thanks Guys

I really appreciatte the information

I have another question

It areas like the bridge and top, wouldn't it be an advantage to have some flexibility in the joint, to allow for the movement of the top ? I would have thought if Hide sets dead hard would it not be more brittle ?

Thanks Bruce

I didn't know that I can see the advantage to having a white titebond, was it Titebond 1 you compared it too ?

[QUOTE=John Kinnaird]If I want heat resistance I use titebond II. (like
purfling glued to binding that is going to be heat bent, or like a scarf joint
on the neck when I know that there might someday be a possibility of
removing the fingerboard with heat and I don't want the scarf joint to be
affected, etc. etc.)[/QUOTE]

John, you found that Titebond II has better heat resistance? Also anybody
tried the Titebond hide glue? They recomend it for "instrument repair"… I
tried it to glue a bridge once and it lifted after 2 weeks… Cleaned everything
and reglued it with Titebond I and no problem.

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Sorry Russell, those specs and comparisons have exited my gray matter. However, you can see them yourself at the Franklin / Titebond website. Finding this stuff for purchase is a bear. I got mine at Hogan's Hardwood, Tulsa Oklahoma. They bought out Paxton's but the glue was still being bottled under the Paxton label until they run out of preprinted bottles. This stuff was so fresh, they didn't realize they had it. Of course that was in May or June. Their inventory on hand was 65 gallons at that time. White Cabinet Makers glue by Titebond/ Franklin.

Hi Laurent

I've used the Titebond hide, but like you I found I didn't get a strong bond with it, it never seems to really cure, or maybe I just had a bad lot.

I guess the thing to be picking up here is that each glue type has it's own set of properties, and that each has it's own uses on different parts of the guitar. I remember Mario saying that he uses a high creep glue to glue down his fretboard extensions. It'a all a matter of understanding the properties of the materials you're dealing with and picking the right glue (or adhesive) for the job.

Laurent
   I have found that titebond II is the only glue (that I have tried) that will hang on to a purfling line glued to the binding in the waist area when I put the bindings on the Fox bender. However, my brother uses CA and he says that hangs on in the heat as well.

John

Titebond original is fine for most anything, although I'll be trying out some hot hide in the near future. Titebond II creeps more than the original, doesn't dry as hard, and shouldn't be used anywhere where you're dealing with any stresses. It's moisture resistant, though, so might be a good choice for laminating bindings.

I've never heard anyone say Franklin's bottled hide glue is anything other than pretty much useless.

It is all about the right glue for the job; I plan to keep using titebond for basic lamination (necks, headplates, box assembly), and use hot hide for braces and bridge (which is a brace, really). Several folks use epoxy for fingerboards because they've found titebond causes some warp/backbow due to the moisture, but I've never had problems with that, so I'm sticking with titebond for that.

[QUOTE=Mattia Valente]Several folks use epoxy for fingerboards because
they've found titebond causes some warp/backbow due to the moisture,
but I've never had problems with that, so I'm sticking with titebond for
that.[/QUOTE]

I've had this problem gluing the FB with Titebond I and ended up with a
backbow, not dramatic as the strings tension took it off, but I'd like more
control. Epoxy seems pretty much irreversible though, if the FB needs to
come off.
I'm thinking of laminating neck and end block for my next builds, what
would you guys use for this? I'd like to be able to steam off the neck for
future neck reset without destroying the laminations. John (Kinnaird),
what do you use for your "reverse Spanish shoe"? I really like that, it
seems to give good support to the FB extension.

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

As for why the "horse in a bottle" type instant hide glues just cannot ever be as strong as pure pearl hide glue.

If memory serves, the answer lay in the fact that in order to keep this stuff viscose and mould free whilst it sits cold on a shelf, for months at a time, manufacturer must add preservative and retardants like urea or some spirit based thinners. These retardants must cause some kind of permanent dilution in bond strength. I would never use this stuff on anything but paper to paper joints.

Real Hide Glue is good, soak it, heat it, use it quick. If your pushed for time, use it in a hot room with pre-heated parts. You can also try blowing the newly clamped area with a heat gun.

Why rumour has it, in order to achieve a perfect glue joint, some early luthiers would glue and clamp the bracing and then burn their viols scrapping back the charred outer to shape them. I don't know how true that is but it sounds good enough to tell the kids and get away with.

What ever you do, when working with hide glue I think the key word to success is METHODICAL.Get your bits and pieces ready, your clamps, cauls and what not all at hand. Turn off your phone, put "Do Not Disturb" on the shed door, and whilst your glue comes up to temp, clear your mind for the task ahead. Lay out your work at the ready and if you are unfamiliar, do a dry run first.

My own experience only extends to instrument repairs, some pretty major, but I have not built yet. That being said, I have used hide glue for other applications and IMO it's great stuff. One big plus, once it sets-up, it continues to tighten it's bond after the clamps are removed as more moisture is expelled making it perfect for repairs in tight places.

Frank Ford explains the benefits well at

Frets.com.

Cheers All

Kim

[QUOTE=laurent]
I've had this problem gluing the FB with Titebond I and ended up with a
backbow, not dramatic as the strings tension took it off, but I'd like more
control. Epoxy seems pretty much irreversible though, if the FB needs to
come off.[/quote]

That was my thought, but the fact several folks here and on the MIMF (Mario pinoeerd it, I'm fairly positive Mark Swanson epoxies his fboards on, and I dimly recall Arnt mentioning something of the sort, although that may just be my brain telling filthy lies). A general hardware store epoxy will hold stuff down, and will release with heat. Apparently. I'd wait for someone who actually does this to confirm with certainty.

[quote]
I'm thinking of laminating neck and end block for my next builds, what
would you guys use for this? I'd like to be able to steam off the neck for
future neck reset without destroying the laminations. John (Kinnaird),
what do you use for your "reverse Spanish shoe"? I really like that, it
seems to give good support to the FB extension.[/QUOTE]

Polyurethane will stay put, no matter what you throw at it. I use it for CF rods in part for that reason.

[QUOTE=Mattia Valente]Polyurethane will stay put, no matter what you
throw at it. I use it for CF rods in part for that reason. [/QUOTE]

Forgive my ignorance: what is polyurethane glue?

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

[QUOTE=laurent] [QUOTE=Mattia Valente]Polyurethane will stay put, no matter what you
throw at it. I use it for CF rods in part for that reason. [/QUOTE]

Forgive my ignorance: what is polyurethane glue?[/QUOTE]

Umm...Polyurethane is labled as such. Single component, lives in a bottle constructional glue. Can be used to glue wood to wood, but does great with dissimilar materials. Is the stuff that foams up and expands as it sets (and needs some moisture to set up at all), so strong clamping is a must. Gorilla Glue is one well-known US incarnation of the stuff, I think, although most people on the MIMF don't seem to like it much at all. I believe Elmer's ProBond is also a PU (again, don't have it here), and is more well liked.